[{"id":1795052,"web_url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/comment/1795052/","msgid":"","list_archive_url":null,"date":"2017-10-27T17:47:56","subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","submitter":{"id":65878,"url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/api/people/65878/","name":"Zack Weinberg","email":"zackw@panix.com"},"content":"On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Rafal Luzynski\n wrote:\n> [documentation]\n\nThank you for writing documentation.\n\nIn another message, you asked where it was appropriate to document\nchanges to the format of the locale data file. I also checked and I\ncould not find any existing documentation of the locale data file\nformat or semantics. Therefore, you do not have to update it. :-)\n(Of course, if you want to write a whole new chapter for the manual,\ndocumenting the locale data file, we would be grateful -- but please\nsend that as a separate patch.)\n\nIn that message you were also worried about making non-native speaker\nerrors, so let me tell you that your English is very good in general;\nI only found a few places where you said something in a way that a\nnative speaker wouldn't. I do have a lot of corrections below, but\nmostly they are about clarity, not grammar.\n\n> [BZ#10871]\n> * manual/locale.texi (nl_langinfo): Document ALTMON_1..12,\n> precise details about ABMON_1..12 and MON_1..12.\n> * manual/time.texi (strftime): Document \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" format\n> specifiers, precise details about \"%B\" and \"%b\".\n\nBecause these are changes to the manual, rather than the code, it is\nnot important to give the complete list of symbols in this changelog\nentry.\n\nHowever, you are using \"precise\" as a verb here, which doesn't make\nsense; \"precise\" is not used as a verb in any variety of English that\nI know. I only understood what you meant after reading the entire\npatch. What you want to say is\n\n [BZ#10871]\n * manual/locale.texi: Document ALTMON_1..12 constants for\n nl_langinfo. Explain when to use ALTMON instead of MON.\n * manual/time.texi (strftime, strptime): Document GNU extension\n permitting O modifier with %B and %b. Explain when to use\n %OB instead of %B..\n\n> +* Support of two grammatical forms of month names has been added.\n> + It has been precised that the month names returned by nl_langinfo with\n> + MON_1..12 and ABMON_1..12, and formatted by strftime with \"%B\" and \"%b\"\n> + format specifiers are in the grammatical form used when the month forms\n> + part of a complete date. New series of valid arguments have been added\n> + to nl_langinfo: ALTMON_1..12 and _NL_ABALTMON_1..12 and the \"O\" modifier\n> + is supported with \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers by strftime, they\n> + generate the month names in the grammatical form used when the month is\n> + named by itself. This feature is required by several languages, mostly\n> + Slavic and Baltic but also Greek and probably more. In other languages\n> + which do not need this feature the output month names will be the same\n> + for both old and new arguments of nl_langinfo and strftime.\n\nI need to revise this entire paragraph, because, again, \"precise\"\ndoesn't make sense as a verb. It would also make more sense to\nexplain things in a different order. New suggested text:\n\n+ * Support for two grammatical forms of month name has been added.\n+ In a call to strftime, the \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers will now\n+ produce the grammatical form required when the month is used as part\n+ of a complete date. New \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" specifiers produce the form\n+ required when the month is named by itself. For instance, in many\n+ Slavic and Baltic languages, \"%B\" will produce the month in genitive\n+ case, and \"%OB\" will produce the month in nominative case.\n+\n+ In a call to strptime, \"%B\", \"%b\", \"%h\", \"%OB\", \"%Ob\", and \"%Oh\"\n+ are all valid and will all accept any known form of month\n+ name---standalone or complete, abbreviated or full. In a call to\n+ nl_langinfo, the query constants MON_1..12 and ABMON_1..12 return\n+ the strings used by \"%B\" and \"%b\", respectively. New query\n+ constants ALTMON_1..12 and _NL_ABALTMON_1..12 return the strings\n+ used by \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\", respectively.\n+\n+ In a locale definition file, use \"alt_mon\" and \"ab_alt_mon\" to\n+ define the strings for %OB and %Ob, respectively; these have the\n+ same syntax as \"mon\" and \"ab_mon\".\n+\n+ This feature is currently a GNU extension, but it is expected to\n+ be added to the next revision of POSIX, and it is also already\n+ available on some BSD-derived operating systems.\n\n> @itemx ABMON_12\n> -The return value is abbreviated name of the month. @code{ABMON_1}\n> +The return value is abbreviated name of the month, in the grammatical form\n> +used when the month forms part of a complete date. @code{ABMON_1}\n> corresponds to January.\n\nThere is an error in the part of this sentence you didn't change.\nPlease correct it while we're in here anyway:\n\n+ The return value is the abbreviated name of the month, ...\n ^^^^\n\n> +Similar to @code{MON_1} etc., but here the month names are in the grammatical\n\nTexinfo quirk: write \"etc.,@:\" instead of \"etc.,\" to make sure the\nspace after the comma is not too wide in the PDF version of the\nmanual.\n\n> +form used when the month is named by itself. The @code{strftime} functions\n> +use this information when the modifier @code{O} is used in a format specifier\n> +@code{B}.\n\nChange \"this information\" to \"these month names\".\n\nChange \"the modifier @code{O} is used in a format specifier @code{B}\" to\n\"for the format specifier @code{%OB}.\"\n\n> + Here the first value @code{ALTMON_1} also corresponds to January.\n\nI don't think this sentence is necessary. (I see that it appears\nunder the specification of MON_* but it's clunky there too. Possibly\nI will revise this entire section myself later.)\n\n> +Note that in locales which do not need different grammatical forms of the\n> +month names (including English) the return values are identical to those\n> +returned by the corresponding @code{MON_@dots{}} values.\n\n\"Note that not all languages need two different forms of the month names,\nso the strings returned for @code{MON_@dots{}} and @code{ALTMON_@dots{}}\nmay or may not be the same, depending on the locale.\"\n\n> diff --git a/manual/time.texi b/manual/time.texi\n> index 33aa221..396934e 100644\n> --- a/manual/time.texi\n> +++ b/manual/time.texi\n> @@ -1347,7 +1347,10 @@ Emperors' reigns.\n>\n> @item O\n> Use the locale's alternate numeric symbols for numbers. This modifier\n> -applies only to numeric format specifiers.\n> +applies only to numeric format specifiers. Additionally, as a GNU extension,\n> +this modifier also applies to the @code{%b} and @code{%B} format specifiers\n> +and forces the use of month names in the grammatical form used when the month\n> +is named by itself.\n> @end table\n\nWe need to change the older text to make this clearer:\n\n @item O\n With all format specifiers that produce numbers: use the locale's\n alternate numeric symbols.\n\n With @code{%B} and @code{%b}: use the grammatical form for month names\n that is appropriate when the month is named by itself, rather than\n the form that is appropriate when the month is used as part of a\n complete date. This is a GNU extension.\n\n> @item %b\n> The abbreviated month name according to the current locale.\n> +As a GNU extension, it is specified that the abbreviated month name is\n> +produced in the grammatical form used when the month forms part of a complete\n> +date; applying the @code{O} modifier produces the abbreviated month name in\n> +the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n\nThe O modifier is unambiguously a GNU extension, but the grammatical\nform is just what the locale does. I would say instead\n\n @item %b\n The abbreviated month name according to the current locale, in the\n grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%Ob})\n to get the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n\n> @item %B\n> The full month name according to the current locale.\n> +As a GNU extension, it is specified that the full month name is produced in\n> +the grammatical form used when the month forms part of a complete date;\n> +applying the @code{O} modifier produces the abbreviated month name in the\n> +grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n\nSimilarly; also, you have a copy-and-paste error, it says \"abbreviated\nmonth name\" here too.\n\n @item %B\n The full month name according to the current locale, in the\n grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%Ob})\n to get the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n\n> -Using @code{%B} together with @code{%d} produces grammatically\n> -incorrect results for some locales.\n> +Note that most of the locales do not need different grammatical forms of the\n> +month names. In these locales the @code{O} modifier does not change the\n> +results of the @code{%b} and @code{%B} specifiers.\n\nParalleling what we said earlier about MON_... and ALTMON_..., make this\n\n Note that not all languages need two different forms of the month\n names, so the text produced by @code{%B} and @code{%OB}, and by\n @code{%b} and @code{%Ob}, may or may not be the same, depending on\n the locale.\n\n> @itemx %B\n> @itemx %h\n> The month name according to the current locale, in abbreviated form or\n> -the full name.\n> +the full name. If the current locale requires different grammatical forms of\n> +the month names then both forms are accepted, does not matter if the @code{O}\n> +modifier is present or not.\n\nHere again it would be better to change the older text a bit as well:\n\n @itemx %h\n A month name according to the current locale. All three specifiers\n will recognize both abbreviated and full month names. If the\n locale provides two different grammatical forms of month names,\n all three specifiers will recognize both forms.\n\n As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used with these\n specifiers; it has no effect, as both grammatical forms of month\n names are recognized anyway.\n\nzw","headers":{"Return-Path":"","X-Original-To":"incoming@patchwork.ozlabs.org","Delivered-To":["patchwork-incoming@bilbo.ozlabs.org","mailing list libc-alpha@sourceware.org"],"Authentication-Results":["ozlabs.org;\n\tspf=pass (mailfrom) smtp.mailfrom=sourceware.org\n\t(client-ip=209.132.180.131; helo=sourceware.org;\n\tenvelope-from=libc-alpha-return-86490-incoming=patchwork.ozlabs.org@sourceware.org;\n\treceiver=)","ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;\n\tsecure) header.d=sourceware.org header.i=@sourceware.org\n\theader.b=\"khJ8BXmH\"; dkim-atps=neutral","sourceware.org; auth=none"],"Received":["from sourceware.org (server1.sourceware.org [209.132.180.131])\n\t(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256\n\tbits)) (No client certificate requested)\n\tby ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3yNrvH0mbbz9t39\n\tfor ;\n\tSat, 28 Oct 2017 04:48:10 +1100 (AEDT)","(qmail 116585 invoked by alias); 27 Oct 2017 17:48:03 -0000","(qmail 116390 invoked by uid 89); 27 Oct 2017 17:48:01 -0000"],"DomainKey-Signature":"a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date\n\t:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; q=dns; s=default; b=qzpx\n\tI2xlAw8D6wpo0RFOwvEotwfjLNsJhFoYarqJiOjjks2255EJHidP6XrPu6kF89XC\n\tMOb7YnWPF1c6tvL94Dsi5ToUbX5FcjRjhh5TpMGBkDbqYt2AB1VB3T/+tqtUVEdn\n\tnbvuQ25ilsFGSofgfDUZfsQN8TOh4iAlSjV96Wk=","DKIM-Signature":"v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date\n\t:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; s=default; bh=koddqBebSm\n\tAa8JNvdry8JhO8f90=; b=khJ8BXmHI/fKoXHIURcNGBLpGou/eBSRwN+GKolC5O\n\t5/WvXnwkBGfBOFj1dj/2PNJ9lU9RnZ5aeLZZgdAUbw/Sf8/1sKxiNxoSRmU8Hbg1\n\tNdE2Rrp/7OYKYJ11hEK8hlZynFBFi9fE3d4bsZOxOjE6MrU62UnHlG5aqn6zQ0zZ\n\to=","Mailing-List":"contact libc-alpha-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm","Precedence":"bulk","List-Id":"","List-Unsubscribe":"","List-Subscribe":"","List-Archive":"","List-Post":"","List-Help":",\n\t","Sender":"libc-alpha-owner@sourceware.org","X-Virus-Found":"No","X-Spam-SWARE-Status":"No, score=-24.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00,\n\tGIT_PATCH_0, GIT_PATCH_1, GIT_PATCH_2, GIT_PATCH_3,\n\tRCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM, RP_MATCHES_RCVD,\n\tSPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 spammy=greek, Greek,\n\tcorrections, month","X-HELO":"mailbackend.panix.com","X-Gm-Message-State":"AMCzsaWWDN/5M7PRj3ActhfBEz8WyMq9gwK1EMpd/ngVuv3MzaEmSHhA\n\tuh9CoKQl2dCyqMbVdv+A5JVrJLr8NFsnOJS8dLk=","X-Google-Smtp-Source":"ABhQp+SXpIQPExQewnRmmJIyBW6sSfRDfRfct8xoL1wZDOxxttlQmOzf43zUUhkJYaTjR5TFE3xx9dZghAid7momFJA=","X-Received":"by 10.202.64.85 with SMTP id n82mr646987oia.346.1509126476671;\n\tFri, 27 Oct 2017 10:47:56 -0700 (PDT)","MIME-Version":"1.0","In-Reply-To":"<1489658352.1095088.1505817931266@poczta.nazwa.pl>","References":"<1489658352.1095088.1505817931266@poczta.nazwa.pl>","From":"Zack Weinberg ","Date":"Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:47:56 -0400","X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID":"","Message-ID":"","Subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","To":"Rafal Luzynski ","Cc":"GNU C Library ","Content-Type":"text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\""}},{"id":1802082,"web_url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/comment/1802082/","msgid":"<1758455610.176980.1510227147755@poczta.nazwa.pl>","list_archive_url":null,"date":"2017-11-09T11:32:27","subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","submitter":{"id":67752,"url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/api/people/67752/","name":"Rafal Luzynski","email":"digitalfreak@lingonborough.com"},"content":"Hi Zack,\n\nThank you for your review. Actually it seems to me that you have\nreplaced almost whole my documentation. I am really OK with that!\nWouldn't you like to give a tag for example \"Signed-off-by\"\neventually?\n\nI have applied all your fixes locally with some minor updates even\nif I have some doubts which I express here. At the end of this\nmessage please find an attachment which shows not whole documentation\nbut just your changes. I thought it would be easier for you to review\nonly your changes rather than whole documentation.\n\n27.10.2017 19:47 Zack Weinberg wrote:\n> [...]\n> However, you are using \"precise\" as a verb here, which doesn't make\n> sense; \"precise\" is not used as a verb in any variety of English that\n> I know. I only understood what you meant after reading the entire\n> patch. What you want to say is\n>\n> [BZ#10871]\n> * manual/locale.texi: Document ALTMON_1..12 constants for\n> nl_langinfo. Explain when to use ALTMON instead of MON.\n> * manual/time.texi (strftime, strptime): Document GNU extension\n> permitting O modifier with %B and %b. Explain when to use\n> %OB instead of %B..\n\nThat's one of the reasons why I need a review or even another person\nwriting the documentation. :-( I have checked the dictionaries and\nthe correct verb (or a term) which I meant was \"clarify\", \"qualify\",\n\"pinpoint\", \"specify\", \"state precisely\". Please suggest which term\nto use or please tell that your version does not need any further\nchanges.\n\n> [...]\n> I need to revise this entire paragraph, because, again, \"precise\"\n> doesn't make sense as a verb. It would also make more sense to\n> explain things in a different order. New suggested text:\n>\n> + * Support for two grammatical forms of month name has been added.\n> + In a call to strftime, the \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers will now\n> + produce the grammatical form required when the month is used as part\n> + of a complete date. New \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" specifiers produce the form\n> + required when the month is named by itself. For instance, in many\n> + Slavic and Baltic languages, \"%B\" will produce the month in genitive\n> + case, and \"%OB\" will produce the month in nominative case.\n\nYou have removed \"Greek\". Are you sure you want to remove this?\nOf course it does not make sense to mention all languages here but\non the other hand I'd like to avoid the suggestion that this is only\nfor Slavic (or Balto-Slavic) languages. In fact, these are the original\n(ancient) features of whole Indo-European family.\n\n> + In a call to strptime, \"%B\", \"%b\", \"%h\", \"%OB\", \"%Ob\", and \"%Oh\"\n> + are all valid and will all accept any known form of month\n> + name---standalone or complete, abbreviated or full. In a call to\n\nA triple dash, is this what you want?\n\n> [...]\n> > @itemx ABMON_12\n> > -The return value is abbreviated name of the month. @code{ABMON_1}\n> > +The return value is abbreviated name of the month, in the grammatical form\n> > +used when the month forms part of a complete date. @code{ABMON_1}\n> > corresponds to January.\n>\n> There is an error in the part of this sentence you didn't change.\n> Please correct it while we're in here anyway:\n>\n> + The return value is the abbreviated name of the month, ...\n> ^^^^\n\nThank you, fixed locally.\n\n> > +Similar to @code{MON_1} etc., but here the month names are in the\n> > grammatical\n>\n> Texinfo quirk: write \"etc.,@:\" instead of \"etc.,\" to make sure the\n> space after the comma is not too wide in the PDF version of the\n> manual.\n\nI've found one more occurrence of \"etc.\" in the same document and corrected\nit as well. Please see the attachment.\n\n> > +form used when the month is named by itself. The @code{strftime} functions\n> > +use this information when the modifier @code{O} is used in a format\n> > specifier\n> > +@code{B}.\n>\n> Change \"this information\" to \"these month names\".\n>\n> Change \"the modifier @code{O} is used in a format specifier @code{B}\" to\n> \"for the format specifier @code{%OB}.\"\n>\n> > + Here the first value @code{ALTMON_1} also corresponds to January.\n>\n> I don't think this sentence is necessary. (I see that it appears\n> under the specification of MON_* but it's clunky there too. Possibly\n> I will revise this entire section myself later.)\n> [...]\n\nOK, applied locally, too.\n\n> [...]\n> > diff --git a/manual/time.texi b/manual/time.texi\n> > index 33aa221..396934e 100644\n> > --- a/manual/time.texi\n> > +++ b/manual/time.texi\n> > [...]\n> > @item %b\n> > The abbreviated month name according to the current locale.\n> > +As a GNU extension, it is specified that the abbreviated month name is\n> > +produced in the grammatical form used when the month forms part of a\n> > complete\n> > +date; applying the @code{O} modifier produces the abbreviated month name in\n> > +the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n>\n> The O modifier is unambiguously a GNU extension, but the grammatical\n> form is just what the locale does. I would say instead\n>\n> @item %b\n> The abbreviated month name according to the current locale, in the\n> grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n> As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%Ob})\n> to get the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n>\n> > @item %B\n> > The full month name according to the current locale.\n> > +As a GNU extension, it is specified that the full month name is produced in\n> > +the grammatical form used when the month forms part of a complete date;\n> > +applying the @code{O} modifier produces the abbreviated month name in the\n> > +grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n>\n> Similarly; also, you have a copy-and-paste error, it says \"abbreviated\n> month name\" here too.\n\nGood point, thank you. Fixed locally.\n\n> @item %B\n> The full month name according to the current locale, in the\n> grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n> As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%Ob})\n\nThis should be %OB. :-) ---------------------------------------^^^\nI have fixed locally.\n\nI don't quote your complete review because I have no other questions.\nAgain, please see the attachment where I apply your fixes to my local\nrepository.\n\nRegards,\n\nRafal\nFrom dd6227e98b0bebb263b69783ac4c2738fa383ea1 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001\nFrom: Rafal Luzynski \nDate: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:05:33 +0100\nSubject: [PATCH] Corrections for the documentation from Zack\n\nThis commit is not meant to be pushed to the repository.\nIt's to simplify the review only.\n---\n ChangeLog | 9 +++++----\n NEWS | 35 +++++++++++++++++++++++------------\n manual/locale.texi | 19 +++++++++----------\n manual/time.texi | 49 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------\n 4 files changed, 64 insertions(+), 48 deletions(-)\n\ndiff --git a/ChangeLog b/ChangeLog\nindex 8020990..5cc06fd 100644\n--- a/ChangeLog\n+++ b/ChangeLog\n@@ -1,10 +1,11 @@\n 2017-11-06 Rafal Luzynski \n \n \t[BZ #10871]\n-\t* manual/locale.texi (nl_langinfo): Document ALTMON_1..12,\n-\tprecise details about ABMON_1..12 and MON_1..12.\n-\t* manual/time.texi (strftime): Document \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" format\n-\tspecifiers, precise details about \"%B\" and \"%b\".\n+\t* manual/locale.texi: Document ALTMON_1..12 constants for\n+\tnl_langinfo. Explain when to use ALTMON instead of MON.\n+\t* manual/time.texi (strftime, strptime): Document GNU extension\n+\tpermitting O modifier with %B and %b. Explain when to use\n+\t%OB instead of %B.\n \n 2017-11-06 Rafal Luzynski \n \ndiff --git a/NEWS b/NEWS\nindex 5daf650..9afe47b 100644\n--- a/NEWS\n+++ b/NEWS\n@@ -35,18 +35,29 @@ Major new features:\n are the same interfaces added in version 2.26 for some platforms where\n this format is supported but is not the format of long double.\n \n-* Support of two grammatical forms of month names has been added.\n- It has been precised that the month names returned by nl_langinfo with\n- MON_1..12 and ABMON_1..12, and formatted by strftime with \"%B\" and \"%b\"\n- format specifiers are in the grammatical form used when the month forms\n- part of a complete date. New series of valid arguments have been added\n- to nl_langinfo: ALTMON_1..12 and _NL_ABALTMON_1..12 and the \"O\" modifier\n- is supported with \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers by strftime, they\n- generate the month names in the grammatical form used when the month is\n- named by itself. This feature is required by several languages, mostly\n- Slavic and Baltic but also Greek and probably more. In other languages\n- which do not need this feature the output month names will be the same\n- for both old and new arguments of nl_langinfo and strftime.\n+* Support for two grammatical forms of month name has been added.\n+ In a call to strftime, the \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers will now\n+ produce the grammatical form required when the month is used as part\n+ of a complete date. New \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" specifiers produce the form\n+ required when the month is named by itself. For instance, in many\n+ Slavic and Baltic languages, \"%B\" will produce the month in genitive\n+ case, and \"%OB\" will produce the month in nominative case.\n+\n+ In a call to strptime, \"%B\", \"%b\", \"%h\", \"%OB\", \"%Ob\", and \"%Oh\"\n+ are all valid and will all accept any known form of month\n+ name---standalone or complete, abbreviated or full. In a call to\n+ nl_langinfo, the query constants MON_1..12 and ABMON_1..12 return\n+ the strings used by \"%B\" and \"%b\", respectively. New query\n+ constants ALTMON_1..12 and _NL_ABALTMON_1..12 return the strings\n+ used by \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\", respectively.\n+\n+ In a locale definition file, use \"alt_mon\" and \"ab_alt_mon\" to\n+ define the strings for %OB and %Ob, respectively; these have the\n+ same syntax as \"mon\" and \"ab_mon\".\n+\n+ This feature is currently a GNU extension, but it is expected to\n+ be added to the next revision of POSIX, and it is also already\n+ available on some BSD-derived operating systems.\n \n Deprecated and removed features, and other changes affecting compatibility:\n \ndiff --git a/manual/locale.texi b/manual/locale.texi\nindex b61c709..e5cd9d7 100644\n--- a/manual/locale.texi\n+++ b/manual/locale.texi\n@@ -923,7 +923,7 @@ corresponds to Sunday.\n @itemx DAY_5\n @itemx DAY_6\n @itemx DAY_7\n-Similar to @code{ABDAY_1} etc., but here the return value is the\n+Similar to @code{ABDAY_1} etc.,@: but here the return value is the\n unabbreviated weekday name.\n @item ABMON_1\n @itemx ABMON_2\n@@ -937,8 +937,8 @@ unabbreviated weekday name.\n @itemx ABMON_10\n @itemx ABMON_11\n @itemx ABMON_12\n-The return value is abbreviated name of the month, in the grammatical form\n-used when the month forms part of a complete date. @code{ABMON_1}\n+The return value is the abbreviated name of the month, in the grammatical\n+form used when the month forms part of a complete date. @code{ABMON_1}\n corresponds to January.\n @item MON_1\n @itemx MON_2\n@@ -952,7 +952,7 @@ corresponds to January.\n @itemx MON_10\n @itemx MON_11\n @itemx MON_12\n-Similar to @code{ABMON_1} etc., but here the month names are not abbreviated.\n+Similar to @code{ABMON_1} etc.,@: but here the month names are not abbreviated.\n Here the first value @code{MON_1} also corresponds to January.\n @item ALTMON_1\n @itemx ALTMON_2\n@@ -966,14 +966,13 @@ Here the first value @code{MON_1} also corresponds to January.\n @itemx ALTMON_10\n @itemx ALTMON_11\n @itemx ALTMON_12\n-Similar to @code{MON_1} etc., but here the month names are in the grammatical\n+Similar to @code{MON_1} etc.,@: but here the month names are in the grammatical\n form used when the month is named by itself. The @code{strftime} functions\n-use this information when the modifier @code{O} is used in a format specifier\n-@code{B}. Here the first value @code{ALTMON_1} also corresponds to January.\n+use these month names for the format specifier @code{OB}.\n \n-Note that in locales which do not need different grammatical forms of the\n-month names (including English) the return values are identical to those\n-returned by the corresponding @code{MON_@dots{}} values.\n+Note that not all languages need two different forms of the month names,\n+so the strings returned for @code{MON_@dots{}} and @code{ALTMON_@dots{}}\n+may or may not be the same, depending on the locale.\n @item AM_STR\n @itemx PM_STR\n The return values are strings which can be used in the representation of time\ndiff --git a/manual/time.texi b/manual/time.texi\nindex 396934e..81c7674 100644\n--- a/manual/time.texi\n+++ b/manual/time.texi\n@@ -1346,11 +1346,13 @@ example, @code{%Ex} might yield a date format based on the Japanese\n Emperors' reigns.\n \n @item O\n-Use the locale's alternate numeric symbols for numbers. This modifier\n-applies only to numeric format specifiers. Additionally, as a GNU extension,\n-this modifier also applies to the @code{%b} and @code{%B} format specifiers\n-and forces the use of month names in the grammatical form used when the month\n-is named by itself.\n+With all format specifiers that produce numbers: use the locale's\n+alternate numeric symbols.\n+\n+With @code{%B} and @code{%b}: use the grammatical form for month names\n+that is appropriate when the month is named by itself, rather than\n+the form that is appropriate when the month is used as part of a\n+complete date. This is a GNU extension.\n @end table\n \n If the format supports the modifier but no alternate representation\n@@ -1368,22 +1370,21 @@ The abbreviated weekday name according to the current locale.\n The full weekday name according to the current locale.\n \n @item %b\n-The abbreviated month name according to the current locale.\n-As a GNU extension, it is specified that the abbreviated month name is\n-produced in the grammatical form used when the month forms part of a complete\n-date; applying the @code{O} modifier produces the abbreviated month name in\n-the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n+The abbreviated month name according to the current locale, in the\n+grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n+As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%Ob})\n+to get the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n \n @item %B\n-The full month name according to the current locale.\n-As a GNU extension, it is specified that the full month name is produced in\n-the grammatical form used when the month forms part of a complete date;\n-applying the @code{O} modifier produces the abbreviated month name in the\n-grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n+The full month name according to the current locale, in the\n+grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n+As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%OB})\n+to get the grammatical form used when the month is named by itself.\n \n-Note that most of the locales do not need different grammatical forms of the\n-month names. In these locales the @code{O} modifier does not change the\n-results of the @code{%b} and @code{%B} specifiers.\n+Note that not all languages need two different forms of the month\n+names, so the text produced by @code{%B} and @code{%OB}, and by\n+@code{%b} and @code{%Ob}, may or may not be the same, depending on\n+the locale.\n \n @item %c\n The preferred calendar time representation for the current locale.\n@@ -1790,10 +1791,14 @@ the full name.\n @item %b\n @itemx %B\n @itemx %h\n-The month name according to the current locale, in abbreviated form or\n-the full name. If the current locale requires different grammatical forms of\n-the month names then both forms are accepted, does not matter if the @code{O}\n-modifier is present or not.\n+A month name according to the current locale. All three specifiers\n+will recognize both abbreviated and full month names. If the\n+locale provides two different grammatical forms of month names,\n+all three specifiers will recognize both forms.\n+\n+As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used with these\n+specifiers; it has no effect, as both grammatical forms of month\n+names are recognized anyway.\n \n @item %c\n The date and time representation for the current locale.","headers":{"Return-Path":"","X-Original-To":"incoming@patchwork.ozlabs.org","Delivered-To":["patchwork-incoming@bilbo.ozlabs.org","mailing list libc-alpha@sourceware.org"],"Authentication-Results":["ozlabs.org;\n\tspf=pass (mailfrom) smtp.mailfrom=sourceware.org\n\t(client-ip=209.132.180.131; helo=sourceware.org;\n\tenvelope-from=libc-alpha-return-86939-incoming=patchwork.ozlabs.org@sourceware.org;\n\treceiver=)","ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;\n\tsecure) header.d=sourceware.org header.i=@sourceware.org\n\theader.b=\"WlbU2eVM\"; dkim-atps=neutral","sourceware.org; auth=none"],"Received":["from sourceware.org (server1.sourceware.org [209.132.180.131])\n\t(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256\n\tbits)) (No client certificate requested)\n\tby ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3yXgy360KWz9t4c\n\tfor ;\n\tThu, 9 Nov 2017 22:32:43 +1100 (AEDT)","(qmail 7635 invoked by alias); 9 Nov 2017 11:32:36 -0000","(qmail 7623 invoked by uid 89); 9 Nov 2017 11:32:35 -0000"],"DomainKey-Signature":"a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:date:from:reply-to:to:cc:message-id\n\t:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type; q=\n\tdns; s=default; b=fs9TW/sPGAurGtSVuHztTgkwdmddcwPGL66hwHcD0AGqiq\n\tQ+CJRYf/n1hJdsnljzZN18ASSvcQgsOYCmXDMa6Z9xIaDdJLwU/T2610i/3a5Eez\n\twtAqDNVK1Arznh/dHJ41pm9PHYtEikhHW/7FRM/AD+/wkVeGRGhv23NtP+2RA=","DKIM-Signature":"v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:date:from:reply-to:to:cc:message-id\n\t:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type; s=\n\tdefault; bh=iJ7PjN8I2hZp7+U3/i43nQJG5mo=; b=WlbU2eVMwqbXcYAzGVB3\n\tdZvJ/BPy848Vth7uju5MUYYt6NGkX4uydxE8knO0IpfDMq4a5+jWzyd7LJpl3mjc\n\t/cjgZs4AoKTz2Pfgcw3qZgwtZgUyTTTOlrLhAiDa+Gm1LfMtL4+ZSBWrnOhXB8at\n\t6zXomXFNDd2OPWiJ8FScLxo=","Mailing-List":"contact libc-alpha-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm","Precedence":"bulk","List-Id":"","List-Unsubscribe":"","List-Subscribe":"","List-Archive":"","List-Post":"","List-Help":",\n\t","Sender":"libc-alpha-owner@sourceware.org","X-Virus-Found":"No","X-Spam-SWARE-Status":"No, score=-23.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00,\n\tGIT_PATCH_0, GIT_PATCH_1, GIT_PATCH_2, GIT_PATCH_3,\n\tKAM_LAZY_DOMAIN_SECURITY autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 spammy=dash,\n\tthat!, H*c:PHrt, occurrence","X-HELO":"aev204.rev.netart.pl","X-Spam-Score":"3.8","Date":"Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:32:27 +0100 (CET)","From":"Rafal Luzynski ","Reply-To":"Rafal Luzynski ","To":"Zack Weinberg ","Cc":"GNU C Library ","Message-ID":"<1758455610.176980.1510227147755@poczta.nazwa.pl>","In-Reply-To":"","References":"<1489658352.1095088.1505817931266@poczta.nazwa.pl>\n\t","Subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","MIME-Version":"1.0","Content-Type":"multipart/mixed; \n\tboundary=\"----=_Part_176979_665258471.1510227147753\"","X-Originating-Client":"com.openexchange.ox.gui.dhtml"}},{"id":1802239,"web_url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/comment/1802239/","msgid":"","list_archive_url":null,"date":"2017-11-09T15:19:33","subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","submitter":{"id":65878,"url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/api/people/65878/","name":"Zack Weinberg","email":"zackw@panix.com"},"content":"On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:32 AM, Rafal Luzynski\n wrote:\n>\n> Thank you for your review. Actually it seems to me that you have\n> replaced almost whole my documentation. I am really OK with that!\n> Wouldn't you like to give a tag for example \"Signed-off-by\"\n> eventually?\n\nAre we officially doing that now? I have to admit I don't really get\nthe point of it, but yes, you can go ahead and put\n\nReviewed-by: Zack Weinberg \n\non all of these patches if we are officially requiring it.\n\n> I have applied all your fixes locally with some minor updates even\n> if I have some doubts which I express here. At the end of this\n> message please find an attachment which shows not whole documentation\n> but just your changes. I thought it would be easier for you to review\n> only your changes rather than whole documentation.\n\nYes, this makes sense in this case.\n\n> 27.10.2017 19:47 Zack Weinberg wrote:\n>> [...]\n>> However, you are using \"precise\" as a verb here, which doesn't make\n>> sense; \"precise\" is not used as a verb in any variety of English that\n>> I know. I only understood what you meant after reading the entire\n>> patch. What you want to say is\n>>\n>> [BZ#10871]\n>> * manual/locale.texi: Document ALTMON_1..12 constants for\n>> nl_langinfo. Explain when to use ALTMON instead of MON.\n>> * manual/time.texi (strftime, strptime): Document GNU extension\n>> permitting O modifier with %B and %b. Explain when to use\n>> %OB instead of %B..\n>\n> That's one of the reasons why I need a review or even another person\n> writing the documentation. :-( I have checked the dictionaries and\n> the correct verb (or a term) which I meant was \"clarify\", \"qualify\",\n> \"pinpoint\", \"specify\", \"state precisely\". Please suggest which term\n> to use or please tell that your version does not need any further\n> changes.\n\nThanks for explaining. Because this is formal documentation of a new\nfeature, I think the best word to use would be \"specify\".\n\n>> + * Support for two grammatical forms of month name has been added.\n>> + In a call to strftime, the \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers will now\n>> + produce the grammatical form required when the month is used as part\n>> + of a complete date. New \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" specifiers produce the form\n>> + required when the month is named by itself. For instance, in many\n>> + Slavic and Baltic languages, \"%B\" will produce the month in genitive\n>> + case, and \"%OB\" will produce the month in nominative case.\n>\n> You have removed \"Greek\". Are you sure you want to remove this?\n> Of course it does not make sense to mention all languages here but\n> on the other hand I'd like to avoid the suggestion that this is only\n> for Slavic (or Balto-Slavic) languages. In fact, these are the original\n> (ancient) features of whole Indo-European family.\n\nI removed \"Greek\" because I didn't know if it was correct to say that\n%B will use genitive case and %OB will use nominative case _for Greek_.\nIf it is, we could say\n\n+ For instance, in Greek and in many Slavic and Baltic languages, ...\n\n(English prefers to order lists like this from most to least specific.)\n\nOn the other hand, if Greek wants some other case for %B (accusative,\nperhaps, because it was dative in Ancient Greek?) then we could say\ninstead\n\n+ For instance, in Greek and in many Baltic and Slavic languages, %B and\n+ %OB produce the month in different noun cases\n\nand avoid saying which cases they are.\n\nI wish I knew a non-Indo-European example to throw in.\n\n>> + In a call to strptime, \"%B\", \"%b\", \"%h\", \"%OB\", \"%Ob\", and \"%Oh\"\n>> + are all valid and will all accept any known form of month\n>> + name---standalone or complete, abbreviated or full. In a call to\n>\n> A triple dash, is this what you want?\n\nYes, this is how you write an em-dash in Texinfo source. (I can't\nfind this in the Texinfo manual, but it is a convention inherited from\nTeX, and I just verified that `makeinfo --html` understands it.)\n\n>> Texinfo quirk: write \"etc.,@:\" instead of \"etc.,\" to make sure the\n>> space after the comma is not too wide in the PDF version of the\n>> manual.\n>\n> I've found one more occurrence of \"etc.\" in the same document and corrected\n> it as well. Please see the attachment.\n\nThanks.\n\n>> @item %B\n>> The full month name according to the current locale, in the\n>> grammatical form used when the month is part of a complete date.\n>> As a GNU extension, the @code{O} modifier can be used (@code{%Ob})\n>\n> This should be %OB. :-) ---------------------------------------^^^\n> I have fixed locally.\n\nDoh! Thanks for catching.\n\nzw","headers":{"Return-Path":"","X-Original-To":"incoming@patchwork.ozlabs.org","Delivered-To":["patchwork-incoming@bilbo.ozlabs.org","mailing list libc-alpha@sourceware.org"],"Authentication-Results":["ozlabs.org;\n\tspf=pass (mailfrom) smtp.mailfrom=sourceware.org\n\t(client-ip=209.132.180.131; helo=sourceware.org;\n\tenvelope-from=libc-alpha-return-86945-incoming=patchwork.ozlabs.org@sourceware.org;\n\treceiver=)","ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;\n\tsecure) header.d=sourceware.org header.i=@sourceware.org\n\theader.b=\"rbhRCa4d\"; dkim-atps=neutral","sourceware.org; auth=none"],"Received":["from sourceware.org (server1.sourceware.org [209.132.180.131])\n\t(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256\n\tbits)) (No client certificate requested)\n\tby ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3yXn021w0vz9t5Q\n\tfor ;\n\tFri, 10 Nov 2017 02:19:45 +1100 (AEDT)","(qmail 120081 invoked by alias); 9 Nov 2017 15:19:39 -0000","(qmail 120071 invoked by uid 89); 9 Nov 2017 15:19:38 -0000"],"DomainKey-Signature":"a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date\n\t:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; q=dns; s=default; b=a4Oz\n\tMHzlcDdfn19K4rn79uvVMDwSY2abTpZUylVBI6723at9SlJqmVG6XkEuYxJ8YedO\n\tAKcJGLMNZJDxaLDCT+YlwBIw0GNJ/9E/+b+mY9NbQnUhRTsEBs47TkZTocxYyfHZ\n\tQqS2oGYuqOlbY0xTj8YlhSNpLtlEkNbimv8gcwg=","DKIM-Signature":"v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date\n\t:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; s=default; bh=IdBK+/A7R/\n\tuozRU/WCmXlNKRYx0=; b=rbhRCa4dZHMs26RGkB2uZxpPw0ik0yvoVeP2Im1Pbb\n\tsvH6Ag/p3iNxazWTeAK1NVbMjILuuQJi/qb0lXk8ennYKmgHm7d8Kj0YSkcerfaV\n\tq/9IGyWaQCOnkEFQPYYNur0v+3dj5JGgqBL02qwDujE6s92SlGZOxvcn5FJJCdHN\n\to=","Mailing-List":"contact libc-alpha-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm","Precedence":"bulk","List-Id":"","List-Unsubscribe":"","List-Subscribe":"","List-Archive":"","List-Post":"","List-Help":",\n\t","Sender":"libc-alpha-owner@sourceware.org","X-Virus-Found":"No","X-Spam-SWARE-Status":"No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00,\n\tRCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM, RP_MATCHES_RCVD,\n\tSPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 spammy=knew, catching, tex,\n\tmonth","X-HELO":"mailbackend.panix.com","X-Gm-Message-State":"AJaThX7bJF1RVOa9OzRmjFS51OIAmDhXx/AfIlIyGMva0xe72W9vvP+v\n\tcTis/zqf7ISYAfI2ttNCCwN2ik3j5sHJhg8GKMI=","X-Google-Smtp-Source":"AGs4zMbQB12aRgrO/4bnvOs5+BgtNg6eKlrWeUz5zPOqRYqBisSjsOGCuUbxmF/vaoe7dJyagVxiRjGWJMfRBU09YWw=","X-Received":"by 10.202.196.194 with SMTP id u185mr446713oif.259.1510240774412;\n\tThu, 09 Nov 2017 07:19:34 -0800 (PST)","MIME-Version":"1.0","In-Reply-To":"<1758455610.176980.1510227147755@poczta.nazwa.pl>","References":"<1489658352.1095088.1505817931266@poczta.nazwa.pl>\n\t\n\t<1758455610.176980.1510227147755@poczta.nazwa.pl>","From":"Zack Weinberg ","Date":"Thu, 9 Nov 2017 10:19:33 -0500","X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID":"","Message-ID":"","Subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","To":"Rafal Luzynski ","Cc":"GNU C Library ","Content-Type":"text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\""}},{"id":1802247,"web_url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/comment/1802247/","msgid":"<7682b4e6-bdc1-a512-959f-4f6e48a70790@redhat.com>","list_archive_url":null,"date":"2017-11-09T15:27:52","subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","submitter":{"id":14312,"url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/api/people/14312/","name":"Florian Weimer","email":"fweimer@redhat.com"},"content":"On 11/09/2017 04:19 PM, Zack Weinberg wrote:\n> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:32 AM, Rafal Luzynski\n> wrote:\n>> Thank you for your review. Actually it seems to me that you have\n>> replaced almost whole my documentation. I am really OK with that!\n>> Wouldn't you like to give a tag for example \"Signed-off-by\"\n>> eventually?\n> Are we officially doing that now? I have to admit I don't really get\n> the point of it, but yes, you can go ahead and put\n> \n> Reviewed-by: Zack Weinberg\n> \n> on all of these patches if we are officially requiring it.\n\nWe are not.\n\nAnd Signed-off-by would be wrong because it implies a DCO model. We \nhave copyright assignments instead. I don't think the kernel uses \nSigned-off-by for reviewers, either.\n\nThanks,\nFlorian","headers":{"Return-Path":"","X-Original-To":"incoming@patchwork.ozlabs.org","Delivered-To":["patchwork-incoming@bilbo.ozlabs.org","mailing list libc-alpha@sourceware.org"],"Authentication-Results":["ozlabs.org;\n\tspf=pass (mailfrom) smtp.mailfrom=sourceware.org\n\t(client-ip=209.132.180.131; helo=sourceware.org;\n\tenvelope-from=libc-alpha-return-86946-incoming=patchwork.ozlabs.org@sourceware.org;\n\treceiver=)","ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;\n\tsecure) header.d=sourceware.org header.i=@sourceware.org\n\theader.b=\"bgfdwvJR\"; dkim-atps=neutral","sourceware.org; auth=none"],"Received":["from sourceware.org (server1.sourceware.org [209.132.180.131])\n\t(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256\n\tbits)) (No client certificate requested)\n\tby ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3yXn9d1vrlz9t5Q\n\tfor ;\n\tFri, 10 Nov 2017 02:28:05 +1100 (AEDT)","(qmail 8800 invoked by alias); 9 Nov 2017 15:27:58 -0000","(qmail 8791 invoked by uid 89); 9 Nov 2017 15:27:57 -0000"],"DomainKey-Signature":"a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date\n\t:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type\n\t:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=default; b=jiUxnpS7UU71DP/p\n\tTNtJVqfCr9gbLoQIHhW+TG+1m6ypiv51uzuRZTKTbssvMhgfLmV2dFqOwgmk5Niz\n\tcpnliNXLVgVHwkXjWQs9KeowWQbgQU3kmZ9H8aJZh1FnUnQcWFSRHPrm6ifX+IBC\n\tYnKRTWF6G/Yj92Gq1Cq5HL3Vt1U=","DKIM-Signature":"v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date\n\t:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type\n\t:content-transfer-encoding; s=default; bh=0NYTqRvy1BNbHqxYHa2Q6c\n\t7RVSA=; b=bgfdwvJR5OMMo1upAe9UGHxa03zUH96LYZCph5OtgMoKUxvAd/Vdjx\n\tPiykSiN5YGhheQSQieUttd52pOXk4ABj6bnL8mhjAlyzXzT425Xo58T6rylrij9h\n\tUD/6XpcMSuh7avR6Fy1LrbcIUmBG4pSkJsODfkWndnzQfpVh/GrMU=","Mailing-List":"contact libc-alpha-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm","Precedence":"bulk","List-Id":"","List-Unsubscribe":"","List-Subscribe":"","List-Archive":"","List-Post":"","List-Help":",\n\t","Sender":"libc-alpha-owner@sourceware.org","X-Virus-Found":"No","X-Spam-SWARE-Status":"No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,\n\tRP_MATCHES_RCVD,\n\tSPF_HELO_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2\n\tspammy=Hx-languages-length:861","X-HELO":"mx1.redhat.com","Subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","To":"Zack Weinberg ,\n\tRafal Luzynski ","Cc":"GNU C Library ","References":"<1489658352.1095088.1505817931266@poczta.nazwa.pl>\n\t\n\t<1758455610.176980.1510227147755@poczta.nazwa.pl>\n\t","From":"Florian Weimer ","Message-ID":"<7682b4e6-bdc1-a512-959f-4f6e48a70790@redhat.com>","Date":"Thu, 9 Nov 2017 16:27:52 +0100","User-Agent":"Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101\n\tThunderbird/52.4.0","MIME-Version":"1.0","In-Reply-To":"","Content-Type":"text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed","Content-Transfer-Encoding":"7bit"}},{"id":1804024,"web_url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/comment/1804024/","msgid":"<438881737.582511.1510619348161@poczta.nazwa.pl>","list_archive_url":null,"date":"2017-11-14T00:29:08","subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","submitter":{"id":67752,"url":"http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/api/people/67752/","name":"Rafal Luzynski","email":"digitalfreak@lingonborough.com"},"content":"9.11.2017 16:19 Zack Weinberg wrote:\n>\n>\n> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:32 AM, Rafal Luzynski\n> wrote:\n> >\n> > Thank you for your review. Actually it seems to me that you have\n> > replaced almost whole my documentation. I am really OK with that!\n> > Wouldn't you like to give a tag for example \"Signed-off-by\"\n> > eventually?\n>\n> Are we officially doing that now? I have to admit I don't really get\n> the point of it,\n\nMy aim was to give you a credit for actually writing the documentation.\n\"Reviewed-by:\" is a credit for a review but if I understood correctly\n\"Signed-off-by:\" is a credit for authorship. Although I might have\nmisunderstood.\n\n> but yes, you can go ahead and put\n>\n> Reviewed-by: Zack Weinberg \n>\n> on all of these patches if we are officially requiring it.\n\nI think I have not yet finished the fixes so I'll ask you for more\nreviews and giving this tag again. I'm preparing the new version.\n\n> [...]\n> > 27.10.2017 19:47 Zack Weinberg wrote:\n> >> [...]\n> >> However, you are using \"precise\" as a verb here, which doesn't make\n> >> sense; \"precise\" is not used as a verb in any variety of English that\n> >> I know. I only understood what you meant after reading the entire\n> >> patch. What you want to say is\n> >>\n> >> [BZ#10871]\n> >> * manual/locale.texi: Document ALTMON_1..12 constants for\n> >> nl_langinfo. Explain when to use ALTMON instead of MON.\n> >> * manual/time.texi (strftime, strptime): Document GNU extension\n> >> permitting O modifier with %B and %b. Explain when to use\n> >> %OB instead of %B..\n> >\n> > That's one of the reasons why I need a review or even another person\n> > writing the documentation. :-( I have checked the dictionaries and\n> > the correct verb (or a term) which I meant was \"clarify\", \"qualify\",\n> > \"pinpoint\", \"specify\", \"state precisely\". Please suggest which term\n> > to use or please tell that your version does not need any further\n> > changes.\n>\n> Thanks for explaining. Because this is formal documentation of a new\n> feature, I think the best word to use would be \"specify\".\n\nSo:\n\n+ * manual/locale.texi: Document ALTMON_1..12 constants for\n+ nl_langinfo. Specify when to use ALTMON instead of MON.\n+ * manual/time.texi (strftime, strptime): Document GNU extension\n+ permitting O modifier with %B and %b. Specify when to use\n+ %OB instead of %B.\n\nwill this be OK?\n\n> >> + * Support for two grammatical forms of month name has been added.\n> >> + In a call to strftime, the \"%B\" and \"%b\" format specifiers will now\n> >> + produce the grammatical form required when the month is used as part\n> >> + of a complete date. New \"%OB\" and \"%Ob\" specifiers produce the form\n> >> + required when the month is named by itself. For instance, in many\n> >> + Slavic and Baltic languages, \"%B\" will produce the month in genitive\n> >> + case, and \"%OB\" will produce the month in nominative case.\n> >\n> > You have removed \"Greek\". Are you sure you want to remove this?\n> > Of course it does not make sense to mention all languages here but\n> > on the other hand I'd like to avoid the suggestion that this is only\n> > for Slavic (or Balto-Slavic) languages. In fact, these are the original\n> > (ancient) features of whole Indo-European family.\n>\n> I removed \"Greek\" because I didn't know if it was correct to say that\n> %B will use genitive case and %OB will use nominative case _for Greek_.\n> If it is, we could say\n>\n> + For instance, in Greek and in many Slavic and Baltic languages, ...\n>\n> (English prefers to order lists like this from most to least specific.)\n>\n> On the other hand, if Greek wants some other case for %B (accusative,\n> perhaps, because it was dative in Ancient Greek?) then we could say\n> instead\n>\n> + For instance, in Greek and in many Baltic and Slavic languages, %B and\n> + %OB produce the month in different noun cases\n>\n> and avoid saying which cases they are.\n\nI have contacted my two Greek friends and they both confirm this is\na genitive case. There is no dative in the contemporary Greek language.\nAccusative exists but this is not the case. So I will add Greek again.\n\n> I wish I knew a non-Indo-European example to throw in.\n\nIt seems to me that Basque is a good example. Another good example\nis Finnish but their case system is too trivial so they prefer not\nto use this solution. [1]\n\nRegards,\n\nRafal\n\n\n[1] https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10871#c41","headers":{"Return-Path":"","X-Original-To":"incoming@patchwork.ozlabs.org","Delivered-To":["patchwork-incoming@bilbo.ozlabs.org","mailing list libc-alpha@sourceware.org"],"Authentication-Results":["ozlabs.org;\n\tspf=pass (mailfrom) smtp.mailfrom=sourceware.org\n\t(client-ip=209.132.180.131; helo=sourceware.org;\n\tenvelope-from=libc-alpha-return-87055-incoming=patchwork.ozlabs.org@sourceware.org;\n\treceiver=)","ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key;\n\tsecure) header.d=sourceware.org header.i=@sourceware.org\n\theader.b=\"uyiTqohP\"; dkim-atps=neutral","sourceware.org; auth=none"],"Received":["from sourceware.org (server1.sourceware.org [209.132.180.131])\n\t(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256\n\tbits)) (No client certificate requested)\n\tby ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ybT0H5ZHhz9s7M\n\tfor ;\n\tTue, 14 Nov 2017 11:29:19 +1100 (AEDT)","(qmail 7712 invoked by alias); 14 Nov 2017 00:29:14 -0000","(qmail 7699 invoked by uid 89); 14 Nov 2017 00:29:13 -0000"],"DomainKey-Signature":"a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:date:from:reply-to:to:cc:message-id\n\t:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type\n\t:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=default; b=r/4CfLcc4iipBRoK\n\t9xlmRG/1uiiuew52rbW5A1q7ZcFWwy9pr3vRtoyh4af3/mXFlKisbX9RV4Bwp7DO\n\tVTiZAbXhRcH2IB0L4eHsdcUcbTGfRG1l0T7hU8gtPFSRRlB3IFhnOotruG8B5Vwc\n\tXbqHOwzI2tyXsWLGPPdvySXebtU=","DKIM-Signature":"v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=sourceware.org; h=list-id\n\t:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-post\n\t:list-help:sender:date:from:reply-to:to:cc:message-id\n\t:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version:content-type\n\t:content-transfer-encoding; s=default; bh=wNaPsdSqzGqwp1xrZjupiX\n\t+ioUY=; b=uyiTqohPfhvprx2ccnGWetH2PHjhCvLv54kqJvifibowuBwFbFSr1g\n\tWydMLNZBjWRmJwIMUxGTDbnVH0sTX8sjTK3r6VrQ2yJDS1W33Z8+ecjBmm6rY/v6\n\tPRGk/2Hyl5cp61kMmA6HWNnk42qOPs2d+CeOXHQcwK/e8Q+Nas0sc=","Mailing-List":"contact libc-alpha-help@sourceware.org; run by ezmlm","Precedence":"bulk","List-Id":"","List-Unsubscribe":"","List-Subscribe":"","List-Archive":"","List-Post":"","List-Help":",\n\t","Sender":"libc-alpha-owner@sourceware.org","X-Virus-Found":"No","X-Spam-SWARE-Status":"No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL, BAYES_00,\n\tKAM_LAZY_DOMAIN_SECURITY,\n\tKB_WAM_FROM_NAME_SINGLEWORD autolearn=no version=3.3.2\n\tspammy=contemporary, greek, noun, H*r:10.252.0","X-HELO":"aev204.rev.netart.pl","X-Spam-Score":"0.8","Date":"Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:29:08 +0100 (CET)","From":"Rafal Luzynski ","Reply-To":"Rafal Luzynski ","To":"Zack Weinberg ","Cc":"GNU C Library ","Message-ID":"<438881737.582511.1510619348161@poczta.nazwa.pl>","In-Reply-To":"","References":"<1489658352.1095088.1505817931266@poczta.nazwa.pl>\n\t\n\t<1758455610.176980.1510227147755@poczta.nazwa.pl>\n\t","Subject":"Re: [RFC][PATCH v9 6/6] Documentation to the above changes (bug\n\t10871).","MIME-Version":"1.0","Content-Type":"text/plain; charset=UTF-8","Content-Transfer-Encoding":"7bit","X-Originating-Client":"com.openexchange.ox.gui.dhtml"}}]